Northanger Abbey 25-27: “Pick Your Poison”
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Catherine is seeing a little sunlight after the confrontation in a previous chapter, but conses are quencing elsewhere. There are choices and there are CHOICES, just like there's romancing and there's romanticizing...
Transcript
Emily Davis-Hale 0:05
This is Reclaiming Jane, an Austen podcast for fans on the margins.
Lauren Wethers 0:08
I'm Lauren Wethers.
Emily Davis-Hale 0:09
And I'm Emily Davis Hale.
Lauren Wethers 0:11
And today, we're reading chapters 25 through 27 of Northanger Abbey through the theme of choice.
Emily Davis-Hale 0:43
And what choices have been made in this section.
Lauren Wethers 0:47
We said this was going to be a really great theme to read through. And I know we say that for so many episodes, but we were we were really right.
Emily Davis-Hale 0:54
There's just like, there's so many dimensions of choice going on. Oh, it's incredible.
Lauren Wethers 1:00
I am just, I'm really excited to be able to talk about all this in in depth and in detail, because I also feel like we're just going to have so much to discuss and also, I'm not gonna lie, I'm a messy girl who lives for drama. And we have it in spades in these three chapters.
Emily Davis-Hale 1:17
We really do, like this whole book definitely does. But these three chapters are fun drama. As you know, as as we know, the most fun drama is drama that you're not directly involved with.
Lauren Wethers 1:29
Which means fictional drama is even better.
Emily Davis-Hale 1:31
I know!
Lauren Wethers 1:32
no one gets hurt.
Emily Davis-Hale 1:33
Well, I guess I've got to recap before we can start talking about this.
Lauren Wethers 1:37
Yes, you do. Are you prepared to recap these three chapters of messy drama in 30 seconds?
Emily Davis-Hale 1:42
I have made an effort at least.
Lauren Wethers 1:44
All right. On your mark, get set, go.
Emily Davis-Hale 1:48
So after their confrontation, Catherine feels really horrible for a minute, but then Henry is like normal and nice enough to make her feel better afterwards. A letter arrives from James that he and Isabella have broken up and he says it's Captain Tilney's fault. So Catherine is kind of over Isabella now as a friend. Henry has to go to Woodston and so they all join in for dinner one day and Catherine really loves this humble little parsonage. And then Isabella finally writes, it's totally not her fault. There was a misunderstanding. Tilney ain't shit. And she really wants Catherine to patch it up. the end.
Lauren Wethers 2:19
Well done.
Emily Davis-Hale 2:19
Thank you.
Lauren Wethers 2:20
Well done. That was a great recap.
Emily Davis-Hale 2:22
All right, Lauren, are you ready to give us your take on the recap of the section?
Lauren Wethers 2:26
I hope so. All right.
Emily Davis-Hale 2:27
On your mark, get set, go.
Lauren Wethers 2:30
Catherine is really embarrassed because she really stuck her foot in her mouth the last section, but Henry's really polite and so eventually they kind of smooth over the awkwardness a little bit. She gets in a letter from James detailing his heartbreak because Isabella has left him and intimating that it might be Captain Tilney's fault. Catherine is really now worried that Captain Tilney may come to visit but luckily he does not. They do get to go to Woodston to go see where Henry lives and General Tilney is dropping some hints to Catherine about how much she should like this house. Isabella tries to get back into Catherine's good graces and it is not working and Catherine does not like her.
Emily Davis-Hale 3:00
Very nice.
Lauren Wethers 3:01
And drama, it is.
Emily Davis-Hale 3:02
Drama it is, oh my goodness. Where do we begin?
Lauren Wethers 3:09
Okay, let's start with Henry being polite to Catherine. So I feel like we need to kind of go back to where we end, which is Catherine running away in shame. And and patch that up before we can move on to the rest of these chapters to kind of talk about how Henry and his gallantry and politeness is really trying to make sure Catherine still feels comfortable even though she she really messed up.
Emily Davis-Hale 3:32
She really messed up. But I mean, this is also the first instance of seeing a deliberate choice, because when they all come down to dinner, Catherine expects that Henry is just gonna like give her the cold shoulder. But he is not only normal towards her, but he's even warmer than usual. So I interpret that as him. I'm sure, I'm sure not regretting that conversation because it needed to be had. But he may be feeling like he was a little short with Catherine. He has seen how deeply she feels everything and is probably a little like, you know, has has caught a whiff of how miserable she's been for the last half hour.
Lauren Wethers 4:22
Yeah, I interpreted it as he could see how obviously upset she was, and wanted to make sure she realized or understood that he did not hate her. Because I think Henry now has a good enough understanding of Catherine to realize that she feels everything very deeply. And she also is not just going to assume, 'Oh, Henry is upset with me, but it will pass.' She will interpret that as, 'Henry hates me and our relationship is forever damaged.' So he's trying to make sure she knows, 'Okay, that was really stupid. I may have been a little bit upset with you. But that doesn't mean that we are you know, lost to each other forever.'
Emily Davis-Hale 5:01
Catherine is definitely the person who's like, if she sends a message to the group chat and nobody answers in five minutes, she's like, 'well, they've cut me out. They're all talking about me separately.'
Lauren Wethers 5:09
'They blocked me, they have a different group chat.'
Emily Davis-Hale 5:11
Yep. But yeah, it's definitely I mean, we've seen throughout the book, how much Henry understands Catherine's temperament. Just the, the way he plays along with certain things, but then reins her back in for others. Yeah, he clearly gets what's going on in her head to a certain extent, and is, I think trying to be reassuring.
Lauren Wethers 5:34
Yes, definitely. And, you know, meanwhile, Eleanor does not know what's going on.
Emily Davis-Hale 5:40
Clueless.
Lauren Wethers 5:42
Nor does General Tilney, though General Tilney seems to be in his own world, just in general, unless he's trying to ascertain that people like things as much as he does, or as much as he wants them to, if he's not concerned with that, he's not really concerned with anything that's happening around him; as long as he has a newspaper in front of him? He's content. And the newspaper in front of General Tilney comes in handy when Catherine gets the letter from James because General Tilney is so wrapped up in his newspaper and his tea that he does not realize like Catherine's literally in tears.
Emily Davis-Hale 6:12
Just sobbing at the breakfast table.
Lauren Wethers 6:14
Yeah, and doesn't really have anywhere to go because she tries to get back to her room. But the maids are making up her rooms. And she's forced to go back downstairs in tears where Henry and Eleanor have clearly been talking about her. And it's just not not a good morning for Catherine.
Emily Davis-Hale 6:28
Yeah, because of course, the news that she gets in this letter is that James and Isabella, as he says, have "mutually parted." And he insinuates that Captain Tilney is at the root of this, that Isabella essentially had been kind of stringing him along to until she secured Tilney and so James is back in Oxford and is lamenting the fact that he'll never meet another woman like Isabella. Dude, I think you dodged a bullet.
Lauren Wethers 6:59
He definitely did. He's being dramatic and heartbroken, which you know, is his right; we all need to be a little bit dramatic and heartbroken after something ends. And while he does say that they you know, mutually parted, he also does imply that Isabella was being a bit duplicitous. Something does not seem right.
Emily Davis-Hale 7:18
Yeah, something ain't adding up.
Lauren Wethers 7:19
No. And he also ends the letter with you know, telling Catherine to be careful with whom -- to whom she gives her heart and to guard it carefully, which means that she also is hesitant to give Henry the letter to read to show him why she's so upset and then recollects and goes 'oh, no, it's just general advice from James because he's in his feelings right now. You actually can read the whole thing,' but she was worried about him reading that last sentence and misinterpreting it.
Emily Davis-Hale 7:44
Oh, sweet girl, if you didn't know before, he definitely does. But I feel for James.
Lauren Wethers 7:50
It's really hard.
Emily Davis-Hale 7:51
And so does Catherine. Yeah, yeah, she's now especially with, you know, the Tilney siblings, somewhat more level headed encouragement is realizing that Isabella is not you know, the staunch, loyal person that Catherine has always wanted to paint her as?
Lauren Wethers 8:08
Yeah, I think the removal from Isabella when Catherine left Bath would have helped with that, just in general getting some distance. And even before she receives a letter from James, Catherine has been thinking about, I haven't received a letter from Isabella. And that's very strange, because she promised she would write to me. And Henry and Eleanor, like, 'well, wouldn't be the first time she's broken a promise. But we're going to let you figure this out on your own.'
Lauren Wethers 8:36
But Catherine knows, and essentially just doesn't want to admit it to herself. Because even when they were in Bath, she knew that there were inconsistencies between Isabella's words and actions, but in between that they would have fun or Isabella would convince her that everything was fine. So she wouldn't really listen to the voice in the back of her head that was saying, 'I don't think everything is quite right here.'
Emily Davis-Hale 8:55
Yeah, because they are close friends. And Isabella, it seems, is the first really close confidant that Catherine's ever had. And you never want to think badly of that person. So it's hard to be shown proof that they're, they're not the wonderful person that you think they are.
Lauren Wethers 9:15
And to be shown proof in a way that really deeply hurt someone you love.
Emily Davis-Hale 9:19
Absolutely. That yeah, that's just you know, salt in the wound.
Lauren Wethers 9:23
It'd be bad enough had it just been like a mean girl catty betrayal, if she had just hurt Catherine, but she didn't just hurt Catherine, she hurt her brother. This is the no -- no coming back from this for Isabella. And at this point, we've yet to hear her explanation because Isabella has yet to write. But no matter Catherine soon has a new distraction.
Emily Davis-Hale 9:43
Oh boy, does she? It turns out that Henry has to go over to Woodston for like a parish meeting or something which again, as we questioned last episode or episode before, but he's just over at Northanger all the time.
Lauren Wethers 9:59
What are you doing?
Emily Davis-Hale 10:00
never doing his job.
Lauren Wethers 10:01
He's not attending to his flock.
Emily Davis-Hale 10:02
I mean, he's an English gentleman. So I guess, you know, this parish sees another priest come in, and it's just like, God, another one. We'll worry about ourselves. Yeah.
Lauren Wethers 10:14
here we go.
Emily Davis-Hale 10:14
Somebody who just needs a job to build character.
Lauren Wethers 10:17
Oh, that was the other thing where Catherine missed the meaning completely. They're discussing money, because Catherine goes to tell -- finally tells Eleanor and Henry Isabella has ended her engagement with James, not only has she ended her engagement, she's involved with your brother in some way, which they are not very pleased with. But they're basically saying, you know, 'he's going to do what he's going to do. And we can't really prevent him from doing that, even though Isabella is not the greatest connection ever.' So they're asking, you know, is she wealthy? Does she have connections? Catherine says, 'No, not really.' And then says, 'But you know, your father's so liberal, I don't imagine that that would be an issue for your family, because he said that money doesn't matter as long as his children are happy and have something to do.' And the narrative just says that Henry and Eleanor look at one another, and they don't bother to correct her. But they're like, that's not. I don't think that's what he meant.
Emily Davis-Hale 11:13
You can hear the simultaneous 'Oh, honey,' in their heads. Oh, sweet summer child.
Lauren Wethers 11:20
Yeah, like the jobs are just for them to have something to do because money is no object, because money matters very much to him. Okay, yeah.
Emily Davis-Hale 11:30
And that also does lead to Catherine's trepidation, the realization that if Isabella wouldn't be good enough for Captain Tilney, then certainly she, who is of even lesser stature than Isabella, would not be suitable for Henry either, because she says something along the lines of, oh, 'if, if Isabella wouldn't be contributing enough to a marriage with the eldest son, then what about Henry who in terms of succession has even less?'
Lauren Wethers 11:30
It would mean that you don't need to have as much for the marriage to the second son. And Henry also correctly flags Isabella in response to Catherine, who for once has picked up on something negative about her friend and verbalized it, because she says, "perhaps though she's behaved so ill by our family, she may behave better by yours. Now she's really got the man she likes, she may be constant." To which Henry responds "Indeed, I am afraid she will. I'm afraid she will be very constant unless a Baronet should come in her way. That is Frederick's only chance."
Emily Davis-Hale 12:36
That was so funny. I love Henry. He's such a little bitch.
Lauren Wethers 12:41
So Catherine's quote, when she's worried about being insignificant because if Isabella has nothing, surely she has nothing. Her quote is, "she was as insignificant and perhaps as portionless as Isabella. And if the heir of the Tilney property had not grandeur and wealth enough in himself, at what point of interest were the demands of his younger brother to rest?" he'll be fine. And so will you.
Emily Davis-Hale 13:04
I hope so. Because soon after, when they all go to visit Woodston, she is very charmed by the village and by the house and by everything around and General Tilney, as usual, is encouraging her admiration.
Lauren Wethers 13:22
To the point where even she's trying not to be overly effusive when they first get there. And the narration says "that she was not nearly as warm and her praise enough for General Tilney as he would have liked," but she makes up for it later, and then he is satisfied.
Emily Davis-Hale 13:36
Yeah, this visit was also a fascinating little study of Henry and Eleanor's relationship with their father. Because it -- Catherine has this shocking revelation that people can say one thing and mean another entirely, because --
Lauren Wethers 13:53
I knew you were going to bring that up!
Emily Davis-Hale 13:54
Yes, of course, I have to! It's the autism. But when General Tilney is proposing this little trip to have dinner at Henry's house, he's saying to his son, you know, don't even worry about it. We'll eat whatever is on hand. And then afterwards, Henry comes to Eleanor and Catherine and says, Well, now I have to leave two days early to get ready for my father's visit. Because he essentially he dines so well at home, anything lesser will be completely out of the question.
Lauren Wethers 14:24
That's the tale as old as time, of needing to impress your parents when they come to your house. Like, I need to prove that I'm an adult, and I can function and I can create things that are kind of the same quality as what you're used to. Not really because I'm still kind of riding on your coattails, but I can do something! And Henry and Eleanor are surprised that their father is not complaining during this meal. He actually seems to be happy. And they don't know what to do with that.
Emily Davis-Hale 14:54
Yeah, but he is definitely intent on talking up the place to Catherine. And even though of course, as usual, he also points out some of its deficiencies because he just can't help himself. But like there's one parlour or something, sitting room, that Henry's just kind of ignored because he's a single person living in this house. But yeah, he hasn't bothered with any kind of decoration of this room. And apparently, it has just like the most lovely view out over the meadows there. There's even like, a little actual cottage visible along the woods or something. And Catherine is completely delighted with it. And General Tilney immediately latches on and is like, 'so what color wallpaper would you put in here? What kind of furniture would you want in here?' And Catherine, as usual, does not catch on at all. I'm sure Henry is standing in the corner, just fuming at his father, like, be less subtle.
Lauren Wethers 15:50
I think she actually does cotton on to it a little bit, because she realized, she becomes a little bit more self conscious. And so she won't answer those questions about the wallpaper. She's like, 'Oh, let me walk it back.' And then at the end of the chapter, it says, "if she could be confident that Henry liked her enough, she wouldn't have to worry at all" about like when or how she would come back to Woodston because General Tilney was so obvious in what he wants, that she doesn't worry about General Tilney wanting her to come back. She worries about Henry wanting her to come back.
Emily Davis-Hale 16:22
Yeah, that's a good point. She does. She is picking up on it at this point.
Lauren Wethers 16:26
But he was being real obvious.
Emily Davis-Hale 16:28
Yeah. But she thinks that she would be the one being presumptuous in this case. And not that he is way out of line.
Lauren Wethers 16:35
Like stop asking her what she wants, your son has not asked her to marry him at all. You're putting the cart before the horse.
Emily Davis-Hale 16:44
The cart is in another county!
Lauren Wethers 16:47
Miles away, miles away. The horse doesn't even have a saddle on it yet.
Emily Davis-Hale 16:53
The horse is still asleep.
Lauren Wethers 16:54
But that does bring us to our final chapter of the section and the duplicitous letter from Isabella.
Emily Davis-Hale 17:05
Oh my god, this girl's absolute Audacity.
Lauren Wethers 17:10
Once again, Catherine sees right through her as Isabella tries to patch things over and claim to Catherine she doesn't know why James isn't speaking to her. And could Catherine write to James on her behalf? Because she lost his address, and so she can't write to him. But if Catherine can write to him and just like let him know that Isabella is really sorry, and she doesn't know why he thinks that there's something weird going on, because I don't know who he could possibly have any ideas about because Captain Tilney and I we are finished. I hate that man can't stand the sight of him.
Emily Davis-Hale 17:44
He spent the last two days with this other girl and then he left join his regiment so.
Lauren Wethers 17:50
Stupid ho.
Emily Davis-Hale 17:54
You can just feel like the offended entitlement coming off of this letter.
Lauren Wethers 17:59
Radiating, radiating off the page.
Emily Davis-Hale 18:01
Things did not work out in the little fantasy way that Isabella had concocted for herself. Surprising no one.
Lauren Wethers 18:09
No.
Emily Davis-Hale 18:09
And now she's trying to grovel back to the last good thing that she lost.
Lauren Wethers 18:15
And it's not gonna work.
Emily Davis-Hale 18:16
Yeah, because she lost it through her own choices. She decided to humor Captain Tilney's flirting and lost James that way. She completely fell down on her promise to Catherine to write and so now she's lost that friendship as well.
Lauren Wethers 18:36
She made a lot of choices. And now those chickens are coming home to roost.
Emily Davis-Hale 18:40
A lot of choices, all of them bad.
Lauren Wethers 18:41
All of them bad.
Emily Davis-Hale 18:42
Every single one.
Lauren Wethers 18:43
Just poor choices from left to right. It's like, and now you have no one. You have no fiance. You have no secondary love interest. You have no friend.
Emily Davis-Hale 18:52
That's it. Yeah, she kinda deserves it.
Lauren Wethers 18:54
Yeah, she did. She really thought that she could play those two against one another and it did not work. And it would be one thing if they were both courting her and she weren't engaged to either of them, in which case, fair play but you're already engaged to James and going behind his back to go flirt with this other guy. And now I can't support you. I support women's rights. I also support women's wrongs. I do not support this wrong.
Emily Davis-Hale 19:20
This isn't a fun wrong, this is just a shitty wrong.
Lauren Wethers 19:23
This is just you being a really, really poor friend to Catherine and even worse to James and I can't get behind that Isabella, babe, I'm sorry.
Emily Davis-Hale 19:31
Absolutely.
Lauren Wethers 19:32
You Girlbossed too close to the sun.
Emily Davis-Hale 19:34
She really -- the wax wings have failed.
Lauren Wethers 19:38
Melted right off. Down she goes. And that's kind of where we ended up for these three chapters.
Emily Davis-Hale 19:45
That's kind of where we end, Catherine has decided to put Isabella out of her head entirely. She's never going to mention her name again to James. She's not even going to write back.
Lauren Wethers 19:54
No. Which is really powerful for Catherine, that not only is she not going to fulfill Isabella's request, she's not going to respond back to her at all.
Emily Davis-Hale 20:02
The power of guilt that Isabella was held over Catherine in trying to invoke their friendship has dissipated.
Lauren Wethers 20:12
And she's also choosing to focus more on supporting James and less on bad mouthing Captain Tilney, because she does kind of want to go down that route. A little bit. And Henry convinces her maybe, maybe let's refocus our energy elsewhere.
Emily Davis-Hale 20:27
So yeah, that's where we have left off at our penultimate section of Northanger Abbey. It was so hard not to just blast through the final four chapters after I finish this section because I want to know what happens.
Lauren Wethers 20:43
You must wait.
Emily Davis-Hale 20:44
I must wait. But the section was so beautifully full of choices being made on everyone's part, except Eleanor, We had a little less of her, but she's still very much active and you know that Tilney sibling duo that I love.
Lauren Wethers 21:00
Even General Tilney is making active choices that aren't always terrible.
Emily Davis-Hale 21:05
Sometimes baffling, but.
Lauren Wethers 21:07
baffling, but not necessarily bad. And he you know, I think he does make a choice to be content, eating dinner at Henry's cottage as well, instead of nitpicking, which he very clearly could have done and he usually does, but is just presiding over a happy table. And that seems like a welcome change.
Emily Davis-Hale 21:25
Which also says a lot about him as a person.
Lauren Wethers 21:28
Yeah.
Emily Davis-Hale 21:29
that his children are so shocked and pleased that he doesn't make comments about, you know, the lack of cold meats on the sideboard or whatever.
Lauren Wethers 21:37
Catherine did not get the correct read on all things General Tilney, but she did read correctly that he has a strained relationship with his children.
Emily Davis-Hale 21:45
Definitely. It took her a minute, but she's finally come to that realization.
Lauren Wethers 21:49
Yes, yeah, it is not because he locked their mother in a secret room. It's just because he's a little bit of an overbearing father.
Emily Davis-Hale 21:58
So a different kind of insufficient parent from like Mr. Bennet, who's just so absent and gives his children such free rein that he's had essentially no influence in their lives. General Tilney wants to have all the influence in their lives.
Lauren Wethers 22:15
Too controlling, in the 21st century he would be raising the children who go to college and then immediately act out because they've never had a taste of freedom before in their lives, and they go crazy.
Lauren Wethers 22:27
Alright, so those are all of our events chapter and story-wise for today, what was your historical connection?
Emily Davis-Hale 22:35
Well, I had pulled out one little tiny thing, and then ended up with a little bit of a slapdash essay on colonialism. So okay, there was one line, where they talked about someone wearing a turban. And then of course, there's also Catherine's little comment on seeing a Japan box or something. So that brings, at least for me to mind, these sort of foreign influences in the like visual fashions of the time. And in this case, specifically Orientalism.
Emily Davis-Hale 23:12
So this kind of ever changing colonial project that England was involved in at the time, really brought Orientalism into focus, which is a preoccupation with the cultures of the East, very broadly construed, but generally referring to the Middle East and North Africa and East and South Asia. Western thought really frames these cultures, continuing today, as being very static and undeveloped, but then also alluring in their exotic and erotic unfamiliarity, especially in this era, in the Regency, to those at home who were just being fed kind of caricature versions of the world, by the people who've actually gone out and see it and then they're just transporting material culture back to be seen.
Emily Davis-Hale 24:04
In 1978, in the book Orientalism, Edward Said who's a Palestinian scholar, he describes this tendency as "a very pervasive Western framework that relies on prejudiced outsider interpretations of real cultures, which ultimately ends up flattening vibrant cultures full of real people into disconnected pieces that can just be picked up or discarded at will, with no actual understanding of what significance they may have." So moving from all of this, into what pops up in Northanger Abbey, these various flavors of Orientalism from all of the places that England is involved in this time, kind of filtered their way back into European design beginning at least in the 15th century, it's not a new phenomenon during the Regency, but it shows up in everything from architecture to decorative arts to fashion.
Emily Davis-Hale 25:09
The late 18th century, when this was being written, was taking particular inspiration from Turkish and Chinese and Egyptian aesthetics, among others, of course. So turbans, which is where this originally began for me, or at least the European interpretation of them, became a very popular fashion item for ladies, especially, during the Regency. But slightly earlier, in the 18th century, there was trends of, you know, English noblemen wearing, you know, sort of a, like a casual turban look with these Banyans, which are based on like, Middle Eastern sort of robe, like, fashions. But it was also perfect that, very early in this section as Catherine's, you know, ruminating on her tendency to frame everything like a gothic novel, we get this very particular commentary on how these things don't happen in England.
Emily Davis-Hale 26:07
And it's definitely, you know, picking up on what Henry had said in the previous chapter. But she's talking about, you know, good English values, and how none of these things would happen here. You know, servants aren't slaves, etc, etc, which we could have a whole other commentary on. But moving moving past that.
Lauren Wethers 26:25
We could, and we have.
Emily Davis-Hale 26:26
yes. But her conclusion is that well, maybe you know, none of these gothic novels are set in good old England. It's always like the Alps, or the south of France or something like that, Italy. And so she concludes that these places must actually be like that, but it would never happen in England. And so all I could think is that I'm terrified to know what her idea of non european countries would be, because it would just be the most caricatured and romanticized version of everything that she had ever heard all conglomerated together.
Lauren Wethers 27:05
She definitely has like the yellow desert filter over anything Middle Eastern.
Emily Davis-Hale 27:12
absolutely.
Lauren Wethers 27:14
In her mind, just everything is yellow. blue sky? no. Green sky, yellow filter.
Emily Davis-Hale 27:22
So yeah, that's how I spiraled from my history topic. Because I just, I mean, Orientalism was and is such a pervasive mental approach to anything that's not Western, again, very broadly taken.
Lauren Wethers 27:41
100% Thank you. I liked that connection a lot. And I noticed those references that you picked up on as well. So I'm glad we got to dive into them a little bit more.
Emily Davis-Hale 27:49
Hey, I'm glad it was fun. What do you have for pop culture today?
Lauren Wethers 27:54
So I wanted to talk about Miss Isabella, because last episode, I talked about main character syndrome. And I said sometimes with main character syndrome, it's because the person in question is narcissistic, and that does not apply to Catherine. However, it does apply to our dear friend Isabella, who thinks that she is in a rom com with a love triangle, and that she is at the center of the love triangle. No one else is playing into this story, unfortunately, which is why it does not end up well for her and she ends up with no one.
Lauren Wethers 28:26
But in honor of Isabella thinking that she's the main character in a rom com in a love triangle, I wanted to pull some five love triangles from pop culture for today's pop culture connection. As one does. So, the first one which is top of mind, because we're in a little bit of a Hunger Games renaissance right now, since the Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes just came out, of course, Gale, Katniss and Peeta from The Hunger Games, which I would also like to say Suzanne Collins did not write as a love triangle to be like the YA love triangle trope. People wanted to market it that way, to be like Team Gale, Team Peeta, because Twilight was also coming out at the same time, but give Suzanne Collins more credit. The fans did that, she did not, Gale was never actually a real option for Katniss.
Emily Davis-Hale 29:12
It was a thematic conflict!
Lauren Wethers 29:14
It was a thematic conflict. And also Katniss is not worried about either those two boys! Katniss is trying to survive. However!
Emily Davis-Hale 29:21
I'm Team Katniss.
Lauren Wethers 29:22
Exactly. I am including it because it was such a massive, massive debate, especially if you were on 2012 tumblr, my God. But that, that was a moment in pop culture. And so although they were not written to be a love triangle, I am including it here. If you have not read or watched the Hunger Games, I don't know how. But Katniss is the main character. Gale is her best friend growing up and Peeta is a person who she's thrown into the arena who she eventually develops a romantic connection to. But of course, it's like, 'do I go with my best friend who's known me for forever or do I go with this person who went on an adventure with me?' that like Marketing tried to create the story to be but that's not actually what it was.
Lauren Wethers 30:06
The second one is from Sex in the City. And that was actually a love triangle. So that's Carrie, Mr. Big, the infamous Mr. Big, and Aiden. I did not watch Sex in the City. But I know enough about the the tropes and those storylines. Sex in the City was I think like before, really, I was watching those types of TV shows, and then I never got into the movies or the spin off. And Just Like That was not for me. However, I do love drama. So in the movie Sex in the City, there's been build up for who Carrie is going to choose on the TV show. So she has her Mr. Big who always wants the relationship to be a secret. He never really wants to fully commit to her, but they just have so much chemistry and it's a very toxic on and off again type of thing. And then she has Aiden, who was ready to propose to her after like two dates, and it's very steady and very lovely but he's so safe. And so she goes with Mr. Big who then leaves her at the altar in the movie.
Emily Davis-Hale 31:04
Oh, not great. Not great.
Lauren Wethers 31:07
Not great. But that is another very 2000s Love Triangle. Carrie and Mr. Big and Aiden because it was such a point of debate, of is she going to be with Mr. Big or will she choose Aiden? Girlfriend chose Mr. Big and she got her heart broken after getting like this massive wedding spread in I don't remember what magazine she said, but she gets like a bridal photoshoot in this magazine and had planned this lavish wedding only for, you know, none of it to come to fruition because he gets cold feet and like I think he'd like calls or texts or from the limo or something just says he can't do it. All of her friends are like ready to fight this man on sight.
Emily Davis-Hale 31:41
I'm sure.
Lauren Wethers 31:42
as they should be. Going back to 2000s YA for a second. I mentioned Twilight when I was talking about the Hunger Games. So of course, we have to talk about that love triangle that was created between Bella, Edward, and Jacob. I will not go into detail about this because where were you? anyway. And that is the other giant YA love triangle.
Emily Davis-Hale 32:01
one that was actually written to be a love triangle.
Lauren Wethers 32:03
One that was actually written to be a love triangle.
Emily Davis-Hale 32:05
Not well, but it was intended to be a love triangle.
Lauren Wethers 32:08
It was poor, but it was there. My fourth one, I'm going back to the world of TV and we're going to a Shonda Rhimes classic, Scandal. Before there was Bridgerton. There was TGiT, Thank God It's Thursday, it was Scandal and How to Get Away with Murder. You had to be there. And on Scandal, one of the main love triangles is between Olivia Pope played by Kerry Washington in excellent outfits every single season, Fitz and Jake Ballard. Mind you. Fitz is the President of the United States. Also he is married. So there's that.
Emily Davis-Hale 32:50
I mean, the show is called Scandal.
Lauren Wethers 32:51
It is called Scandal, mostly because Olivia Pope is the President's fixer. Like she fixes everything.
Emily Davis-Hale 32:56
I was gonna say I thought that was what the premise was.
Lauren Wethers 32:58
It is. But there's also the scandal of the fact that she's secretly banging the president behind his wife's back and everybody else in the country.
Emily Davis-Hale 33:05
So she's not just facing problems. She's also creating them.
Lauren Wethers 33:08
Oh, she's creating multiple problems for herself because Jake Ballard is also the president's friend.
Emily Davis-Hale 33:12
Oh, good Lord.
Lauren Wethers 33:13
It's not even an unrelated person.
Emily Davis-Hale 33:16
Girl really does not want to be out of a job. But no.
Lauren Wethers 33:20
She's so good at cleaning up other people's messes, but her personal life? Hot ass mess.
Emily Davis-Hale 33:25
of course.
Lauren Wethers 33:26
Anyway, my last love triangle is, as it should be, Austen-adjacent; it is from Bridget Jones's Diary. You of course, have Bridget Jones, you then have Daniel who is played by Hugh Grant, because I feel like most people know the faces and they don't know the character names. So Daniel is Hugh Grant's character, also her boss, so maybe not the greatest choice you could ever make. Then she's also choosing between Mark, her childhood friend, who of course, she later figures out is Mr. Right, but she should have known the entire time because he's Colin Firth.
Emily Davis-Hale 34:00
That was your giveaway.
Lauren Wethers 34:01
So you I mean, you already know, Colin Firth is standing right in front of you, so.
Emily Davis-Hale 34:05
It was Colin Firth the whole time.
Lauren Wethers 34:07
It's Mr. Darcy, you have to choose Mr. Darcy. But you know, throughout the events of her diary, she's trying to figure out oh, my God, what do I do? you choose Colin Firth is what you do. So, Isabella, sadly, was not the main character of any plot like these at all. And some of these women had some really poor choices, but they did end up with being able to make a choice. Isabella, on the other hand...kind of high and dry.
Emily Davis-Hale 34:32
Yeah, kind of ruined her own choices.
Lauren Wethers 34:33
She kind of did. So that was my pop culture connection for today. Five different love triangles throughout books, movies and television shows.
Emily Davis-Hale 34:42
Thank you so much.
Lauren Wethers 34:44
Okay. Do we do final takeaways now?
Emily Davis-Hale 34:47
I think we do,and you're up first.
Lauren Wethers 34:50
I think my final takeaway is to be grateful to have choice even if it means you might make a poor one.
Emily Davis-Hale 34:56
Yeah, that makes sense.
Lauren Wethers 34:57
Yeah. That's my takeaway. What about you?
Emily Davis-Hale 35:00
I think mine is about trying to recognize where other people want to have undue influence on your choices. And that's hard to do. And it's also hard to shake that influence a lot of times, but even just having an awareness of it can be very helpful.
Lauren Wethers 35:21
Definitely. Wonderful. Thank you.
Emily Davis-Hale 35:23
Lovely. Shall we go ahead and pull our Tarot?
Lauren Wethers 35:26
Yes, I think I get to pull it this time. Okay, our card is the nine of spades.
Emily Davis-Hale 35:32
This will be a fun one to finish out our book on because the nine of spades is anxiety.
Lauren Wethers 35:38
Oh, no.
Emily Davis-Hale 35:39
excessive worry is rarely warranted. You may find that there are flowers where you look for them.
Lauren Wethers 35:46
We don't know anything about this.
Emily Davis-Hale 35:47
We don't know anything about -- we don't have any personal experience with anxiety.
Lauren Wethers 35:50
None.
Emily Davis-Hale 35:50
I've never been anxious in my life.
Lauren Wethers 35:52
I am Zen.
Emily Davis-Hale 35:53
Well, that's going to be quite a note to end Northanger Abbey on because next episode is our final four chapters. We're rounding it out because there's a weird number of chapters in this book. Yeah, so join us for a very anxious conclusion to Northanger Abbey next time.
Lauren Wethers 36:13
and almost to the season.
Lauren Wethers 36:56
Thank you for joining us in this episode of Reclaiming Jane. Next time we'll be reading chapters 28 through 31 of Northanger Abbey through the lens of anxiety.
Emily Davis-Hale 37:04
To read our show notes and a transcript of this episode, check out our website, reclaimingjanepod.com where you can also find the full back catalogue and links to our social media.
Lauren Wethers 37:11
If you'd like to support us and get access to exclusive content, you can join our Patreon @ReclaimingJanePod.
Emily Davis-Hale 37:16
Reclaiming Jane is produced and co hosted by Lauren Wethers and Emily Davis Hale. Our music is by Latasha Bundy, and our show art is by Emily Davis.
Lauren Wethers 37:23
We'll see you next time nerds.
Emily Davis-Hale 37:33
I was Team Edward. That's where I was.
Lauren Wethers 37:36
I was Team Edward and then I gained a little bit more insight and was Team no one because both of them suck.
Emily Davis-Hale 37:44
They do.
Lauren Wethers 37:45
But in the moment when the fourth book was coming out, and I went to the Borders midnight release party, because they were still doing those and Borders still existed. I was Team Edward.
Emily Davis-Hale 37:59
I was Team Edward up until the moment that I realized that Twilight kind of sucked?
Lauren Wethers 38:03
Literally. Yeah.
Emily Davis-Hale 38:04
And then just made a hard left turn and was like no, I'm gonna make fun of these, actually.
Lauren Wethers 38:08
I did the exact same thing.